Author Topic: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS  (Read 123 times)

Deuce

  • Administrator
  • Grade VII contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 124
Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« on: September 13, 2020, 08:47:30 PM »
It all starts with the frame. 
 
See this document for a primer on frame strength, deflection, and weight:  https://www.deuce4.net/web/GoodByeSpreaderBars.pdf
First the tube size--what tube available?
Ideal tubing for one-person ledge is 1.25"OD, 0.058" wall thickness, and 1" OD, 0.065" wall thickness Aircraft Seamless 6061-T6 tube.
Ideal tubing for two-person ledge is 1.375"OD, 0.058"wall thickness, and 1.125"OD, 0.058" wall thickness tube, with some of the 1.125" reinforced with 1" tube.
SOURCES:
USA: https://www.aircraftspruce.com
https://www.wicksaircraft.com
many larger order suppliers--check the Thomas Register listings for "6061-T6 Seamless Tubing"
https://www.thomasnet.com
METRIC.
A good source (2019-2020) for high quality 2024-T3 tube from China has been this supply shop:
--They can custom make any size you want, but also stock a few great portaledge tubing sizes:
Jiangsu Yiwanhong International Trading Co., Ltd
Address: Shuangdeng Road No.2, Industrial Park, Suzhou, Jiangsu
Website:https://ewhaluminum.en.alibaba.com
Phone:+86 512 62967280
Email:sales@ewhalu.com&mango@ewhalu.com
Skype&Whatsapp: +86  13222297515
Wechat: +86 18283328256
--ask for Mango.  He can send you a stocklist.  Be aware of importing rules and do your own quality control for proper heat treatment of the tubes. 2024-T3 is truly the best portaledge tubing ever.  You can maybe also get it from the USA suppliers above or in ThomasNet.  (Australia USA 6061-T6 tubing is quite dear and also not as good as the 2024-T3).
 
Post questions here, or what kind of tubing (material, outside diameter, wall thickness, etc) that you can get in your country.  Ideally at least 6061-T6 or stronger--HOWEVER, you can use weaker 6000 alloy, but you need to get larger and thicker tubes (heavier).  Let me know if you need help with the strength and deflection calculations for a specific size.  You can compare with a proven design for a particular size ledge.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2020, 07:28:16 PM by Deuce »

Deuce

  • Administrator
  • Grade VII contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 124
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2020, 03:24:15 AM »
Cross post on using weaker aluminum alloys, if that is all you can get:
http://bigwallsforum.com/index.php/topic,4.msg274.html#msg274

All engineering formulas and analysis see the “good bye spreader bars” pdf
http://bigwallsforum.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=50.0;attach=210
« Last Edit: September 14, 2020, 03:25:57 AM by Deuce »

NeNi

  • Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 3
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2020, 07:39:50 AM »
I was researching a lot yesterday about alloy, and the differences between them and similarity to 6061-t6 ... What I found is between 6060-t6, 6063-t5 and 6351-t6, the best or the least "worst", less weak is the 6351-t6 alloy ...
do you agree with that, do you have any knowledge about these "weaker" alloy?
because what I found is "alloy 6351 finds several applications in the construction of ships, trucks and buses, as well as in oil and gas pipelines", unlike alloys 6060 and 6063 which are most commonly used for window and door frames, and heat sinks... maybe the way is to go with this 6351 alloy, what do you think of that?
as I said in the email I sent you Mr. Middendorf, my idea about the sizes is to use on the 4 folded tubes 28.5mmOD * 1.47mm (1.1/8"-1,125"OD * 0.058") and on the other 4 tubes 31.75mmOD * 1,47mm (1.1/4"-1,25"OD* 0.058") or 1.3/8"-1,375"OD (but I think this will be very large and probably heavy) ...
I'm still calling companies across the country, but I still haven't found anyone selling aluminum alloy tube 6061-t6 ...

*here's a link on the comparison between 6061-T6 vs. 6351-T6 Aluminum...
https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/6061-T6-Aluminum/6063-T5-Aluminum


*here's a link on the comparison between 6063-T5 vs. 6351-T6 Aluminum...
https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/6063-T5-Aluminum/6351-AlSi1Mg0.5Mn-A96351-Aluminum


*here's a link on the comparison between 6060-T6 vs. 6351-T6 Aluminum...
https://www.makeitfrom.com/compare/6060-T6-Aluminum/6351-T6-Aluminum

Cheers

Deuce

  • Administrator
  • Grade VII contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 124
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2020, 04:52:52 PM »
I recommend if you use the lesser 6000 aluminum alloys, to bump the wall thickness to 2.0mm. 

Maybe look for 2024-T3.  It is a better alloy, and seems the Chinese are making lots of it (USA probably uses more 6061-T6 and 7075-T6).  It's truly the best portaledge tubing of all, but was very difficult to get in the USA back in the 80's and 90's.  We used to make some 7075, and though you save weight, the tubes are more brittle. 

Just got some 7075 for another project (long tent poles), and tried bending it just for kicks (even though I knew it was not suitable).  see pic.

BuffaloBrad

  • Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 6
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2020, 03:42:08 AM »
I am Australian based myself

Therefore I am trying to source what is in this country (Different story if the world wasn't shut down..)
I've found an aircraft supplier, based in Victoria, with pretty much anything you could want - their stock list shows Aluminum Tube of most grades and sized, likely some of this will be special order from overseas

https://www.airportmetals.com.au/tubular/
https://www.airportmetals.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Stock-List-May-2020-PDF.pdf
I've recently emailed them inquiring what 6061-T6 tube they currently have on hand, awaiting response

Does anyone know of other suppliers in Oz?

Deuce

  • Administrator
  • Grade VII contributor
  • *****
  • Posts: 124
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2020, 03:17:57 PM »
Yes, Airport Metals In Australia supplies the very best USA made seamless 6061-t6 tubing.  Alcoa or Kaiser tubes are the very best 6061-t6 tubes, you can often specify Kaiser or Alcoa when ordering.

I can supply both imperial and metric CAD files for D4 joiners if you want to incorporate into your design.

EMachineShop In USA (though I suspect they also sub out parts offshore, judging by delays when I have used them) is good for parts, but I can also supply info for very good Chinese CNC shops that are quick and about 1/3 price of eMachineShop.

I recommend looking into 2024-t3 tube.  The trouble with 2024 from USA, is that only limited diameters and wall thickness ever seem available from USA suppliers, especially in smaller quantities.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 03:20:45 PM by Deuce »

BuffaloBrad

  • Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 6
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2020, 05:03:57 AM »
Searching around there are two Oz suppliers that bubble to the surface for 2024-t3 Tube

http://www.performancemetalsaustralia.com.au/2024-t3-aluminium-product-information.php
Their web page suggest they have, (Or more likely) can source the following dimensions:       3/16" - 8" (5mm - 203mm) OD; .028" - 1.00" (.7mm - 25mm) wall.

http://www.asapspares.com.au/pdf/alum2024angle&sheet.pdf
Another supplier with limited dimension (probably more realistic). They nicely highlight what is in stock. Current 'on hand' dimension are well off desirable

D4 Joiner! Awesome stuff. I've looked around and found 'Bullet Joiners' https://saintmarineproducts.com.au/product/joiner-25-0x3mm-aluminium/
However, the largest here is inch.

Hmmm. Next I was thinking to get very thick tube at the right OD, then machine a joiner on a metal lathe...

NeNi

  • Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 3
Re: Portaledge FRAME MATERIALS
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2020, 06:06:56 AM »
I am interested in the Chinese supply of 2024-t3 tubes, I am still researching here in my country and have not yet been able to find who sells 6061-t6 or 2024-t3 ...
It can be very expensive to import from China here, but it is good to check anyway.
I will probably try with 6351-t6, better or less worse than the ones I found and compared from the 6000 series, just testing to see how it will work ...
another question Mr. Mideendorf, how does this supply of the joint bullet CAD file work, I am interested, I am thinking of making with fabric suspesion bed with "shark fins" like the old A5, but of course that quick link with bullet joint it's an (r)evolution ...
Cheers